[Meeting of the Minds] -- [Jim and Jim]

[kirktastic]

To: Jim (original_fine)

Jim, remember that non-office talk we said we needed to have? You busy? Mind if I come see you?

JTK

Kirk sent off the message and slumped back into his bed, closing his eyes. He had some questions for Jim... about his relationship with Spock. and definitely some about being a girl. Even though last night had been long (though coming home... amazing). Bones definitely knew how to make a guy feel even better about coming home.

Comments

[original-fine.livejournal.com]

Okay, that was a new wrinkle.

"Your brother?" he said unnecessarily. "Wants him how?"

[kirktastic.livejournal.com]

"He says... he cares about Sam. They kissed they... I don't know if they've gone farther but..." His head dropped back down to his hands. "Bones isn't the 'fuck, have fun, see you later' type. He's the... cares deeply to have sex type."

[original-fine.livejournal.com]

This was more complicated than Jim had thought. How did they get themselves into this mess?

"So am I, if it comes to it," Jim said. "Not in some eternal way, and yeah, I've had my share of one-night stands. But it's rarely just physical with me. I don't know if that makes sense to you, but I feel that connection. For whatever reason, casual just doesn't mean unimportant for me."

He sighed.

"I can't begin to understand what Bones is thinking or feeling. But I do know that the only way I've ever been able to make any relationship work is for both people to be on the same page. I don't mean they have to have the same standards, or both have to be sleeping around. But everyone involved needs to be okay with what everyone else is doing. Really okay, or it just doesn't work. And even then, there are often rules, and the necessity of communication. It sounds like McCoy isn't really reconciled to your behavior. But it also sounds like you're not giving him the same benefit of the doubt you're asking of him. And that implies to me that you're not communicating."

[kirktastic.livejournal.com]

"We try to communicate," Kirk slid a hand through his hair, feeling frustrated already, "I even talked to Sam and said.. that it was okay. But it isn't, and I'm a giant fucking hypocrite." The frustration was clear in his voice. "Bones said, on Risa when we made this.... official, that I was enough for him. Maybe I'm a selfish bastard, but the idea that I'm not enough for him suddenly? Like I'm not doing enough for him that he needs someone else? That's..."

Slump. "That's a weird feeling. At the same time, it's just... part of who I am." A glance up, "Who we are. It's just... natural. I offered to change that for him, even if I wouldn't be happy with it, but that's evidently not enough. I don't... get it. Every time we try to talk about, it just... never ends well. We don't leave the room, we still go to sleep together, everything seems fine in the morning... but... but..."

His expression crumbled, and his eyes squeezed shut. This was killing him, this problem. He wanted to make it right, wanted Bones to be happy. "S'Why I said it was okay to Sam. Cuz it'd make Bones happier. Doesn't help I punched Sam in the face when I found out."

[original-fine.livejournal.com]

Jim tried to remain calm--someone had to. Luckily this wasn't his issue, and he could afford some distance. Not that he knew the solution.

"It sounds to me," he said, "like you're both saying things are 'fine' without either of you really feeling it. You're offering to change, when you really don't want to. And he knows that. And now you think he's changed, in a way you don't like, though it was okay for you to have that. The thing is, Jim, if you aren't happy with how you've had to change for him? Then he won't be happy. And vice versa. You need to think long and hard about what's important to you, and you both need to be brutally honest with each other. And it might hurt. At some point, both of you are going to have a find a compromise you're actually happy with."

Or realize it wasn't working. Or keep hurting each other.

"I can't pretend to know what McCoy gets, or wants, from Sam. And at the risk of painting your situation with my own brush... sex has never been as important to me as the happiness of my loved ones. I'm not telling you what to do, or what the solution is. Obviously I've found one that's the best of both worlds, for me. But I'd give everyone else up in a heartbeat, if that's what they needed. And they know that."

[kirktastic.livejournal.com]

"But half the problem is... we're not... we..." He took a slow breath, and tried again. Only Bones, indirectly or not, could get him flustered like this, "Half the problem is Spock. And I guess Uhura too. When we're with them... it's not... weird. It feels right. He won't even talk about them, not really... like, how can he be okay with me being with them, but not other people? What about you and Spock? I mean, both of us were with you guys! I offered to give up sex to make him happy, isn't that what I just said? I offered to give them up. Isn't that obvious? That I l-- ...love him enough to do that? No one else in this universe or another other would I do that. And then does offering that include Spock, Uhura, you, and Spock? I keep trying to bring it up with him but we just end up in a shouting match..."

His whole body slumped as he got that all out. "In every other thing, it's... it's what I want. He's what I need. Just this one... albeit kinda large topic... is everything feeling so awkward now. Is this what a relationship is supposed to be?"

[original-fine.livejournal.com]

"There's no rules for what a relationship is supposed to be," Jim pointed out. "But if at all possible, it should work for everyone involved. You say you love him enough to give up the others. But you admit to me that you won't like it--McCoy knows that. And he's not willing to be the one you resent. If you make a choice like that, Jim, you have to mean it. I think part of the reason McCoy and Spock are okay with my behavior is they know I meant it, when I offered. If I knew I'd be with no one else the rest of my life, I'd still consider myself the luckiest man in the galaxy. The rest... It's not that I don't care, but it's not worth my relationship. I don't think you're at a point where you truly mean it."

[kirktastic.livejournal.com]

Kirk sighed and rested forward on his elbows, thinking about it. "So you end up with everything you want. Two people who love you, and you still get to go around and do whatever you want." ...There was definitely some jealousy in there, something he couldn't help. I wouldn't even care about the whole Sam thing if I knew the sex wasn't... so important with Bones. I don't care about him having sex with other people, it's..."

How the hell could he explain it? That he didn't want Bones loving someone else? Was it wrong to be selfish about that?

[original-fine.livejournal.com]

Jim spread his hands.

"Do you want me to defend myself, Jim? I don't know what Bones is thinking. I don't know what's between him and Sam. I can't tell you whether to be worried, or... I just don't know. But it seems clear that there's something you two need to work out."

[kirktastic.livejournal.com]

Kirk just gave Jim a very odd look, "Defend yourself from what? I was just stating the truth. And no kidding this is something we need to work out... I just wanted to know how you three were doing. That it can work."

[original-fine.livejournal.com]

Jim sighed. Kirk had seemed almost resentful of his own relationship. Which Jim could, in a way, understand.

"It works for us," he said. "Or it has, so far. I don't know, Jim. I try to keep an eye on things, to check in and make sure everyone's still on the same page. Because things could change. If one or both of them decided that something I was doing was making them unhappy, the fact it didn't seem to be a problem before wouldn't matter. They're my top priority." He shrugged. "I'm sure there's a solution for you."

[kirktastic.livejournal.com]

Kirk studied Jim silently, looking beyond the female form before saying quietly, "If they asked you to never have sex with anyone but them, ever again, would... could you do it? What about flirting?" Maybe it was asking about the will power of himself in a way people usually couldn't; he'd actually get an answer like this.

[original-fine.livejournal.com]

There was no question, for Jim, whether he could or not. He'd made these decisions before, both in favor of relationships and for the sake of command. In fact, his attitude towards sex and relationships had been largely shaped by early experiences with lovers who had opened him up to a more liberal view of things.

But it was clear that Kirk had a question. So Jim tried to answer as honestly as possible.

"I could," he said with conviction. "I have. I had a rule for myself, imposed shortly after I first took command. No fraternizing with the crew--which meant, Jim, that there were long stretches in there with only my hand for company. If they asked? I'd still be having 100% more sex than I had been. It'd take some self-control, some reminding of myself. But I have no doubt I'd be able to handle that.

"At to flirting," Jim smirked, "that's more difficult. I've been accused of flirting as easily as breathing. I'm not sure where the line is, exactly."

[kirktastic.livejournal.com]

Jim had, if Kirk was right, about ten years on him. It was himself in ten years, sort of. At least, parts of him. He took the words in, thinking before he asked, "How old were you exactly when you became Captain?"

He had other thoughts running in the back of his head, but that needed to be answered first.

[original-fine.livejournal.com]

"Thirty-one," Jim said. "Why?"

[kirktastic.livejournal.com]

"Did people come onto you? Did they ask you for sex?" It was more than just his issues with Bones... he was asking advice from another Captain about how to be a better one. He'd basically fucked over that 'no fraternization' from day one, thanks to Bones...

[original-fine.livejournal.com]

"Sure," Jim said, as if reconciled to the fact that people did ask him for sex fairly regularly--directly or not. "And I pissed off not a few of my crew, at first, until they understood I wasn't available. But in the end, I think it made things easier. For me. I don't know what it'll be like when we go back, but at the time I needed freedom from emotional and political entanglements."

[kirktastic.livejournal.com]

Kirk leaned back in his chair, closing his eyes, "I don't know what's the limit... if... hell. I just... that's the kinda person I've always been. You know? The person Bones knew, and came to be friends with and... fell in love with. I guess... a part of me's angry, ya know? Like, what gives him the right to tell me that I should stop? ...Same time, I want to make him happy. And the other way around... is he right that if I do it, he should be able to even if he said he didn't need it and has never been that time kinda, or am I a giant hypocrite for even being ticked?"

He slid a hand over his face, "...I don't understand this relationship stuff."

[original-fine.livejournal.com]

Jim chuckled. "No one ever does," he said. "Look, Jim, I don't know. I don't know what's right for you, or how our histories shaped us differently, exactly. After... when I came back, from 14 till a few years into the Academy, I was shut down. Entirely. I dated girls, and I had sex with them. But I was a model boyfriend. Not much fun, either, and not very original. I had to open up again, to find myself. Sounds like you took a different path, and that's no better or worse. But I don't think we're fixed as one thing or another, entirely. I think things can change, depending on what we need and what we learn about ourselves. And how we let our pasts shape us. Bones fell in love with you, as you are. And he doesn't have a right to tell you your actions are wrong. But he does have a right to need whatever it is he needs. The trick is figuring out whether you can be that for each other. And how."

[kirktastic.livejournal.com]

"...can two people stay together even if one area of their life keeps coming back to haunt them?" Kirk said quietly. "If... somehow this isn't something we can figure out..."

He gritted his teeth, "He makes me happy in everything else. It isn't like I just go out every day and find someone new to fuck. I just... the idea that I couldn't, if I wanted to... I don't get that. Shit, if he wanted to go fuck..." A gesture, vague, "Tina, for all I cared... I wouldn't care. Just had to go and pick my own brother." His lips quirked.

He looked over, "...Sorry I'm dropping this all on you."

[original-fine.livejournal.com]

"It's fine," Jim assured him. "I just wish I had some easy answers for you. There just aren't any. But I think you need to understand that there's no right or wrong in the sense that monogamy or its opposite are absolutely one or the other. You can't dictate to another person what they should feel about something like that. Whether it seems fair to you or not, whether you'd care if McCoy was off with a different person each week, or night, it doesn't matter if it's not what he needs. I might not understand why, objectively, someone wanted me to be sexually faithful. I may not think it matters. But I do understand that if someone asks that of me, it's because they need it. And whether it's fair is not really up for debate. It's up to me to decide whether that's enough for me or not. Just as it's up to the other person to be up front about what they need. And up to both of us to see if we can figure it out."

He paused for a moment.

"Do you think part of it is what happened to you? Do you think this is just how you are, or how you learned to be? Or do you not want to talk about that?"

[kirktastic.livejournal.com]

Kirk hesitated about that last question, frowning, "Don't get what you mean. 'What happened to you'? That covers a lot of ground. I mean... it's just... what I've done for years. I enjoy it. Bones drinks like a fish, I don't rail him on it even if he does it too much."

Pause. "Fuck that came out wrong... I mean, he's got flaws too. I deal with them, still want to be with him, don't feel unhappy about them. They're just a part of who he is. I offered to stop doing it, but that isn't enough. I just.. " He gestured, "This is going full circle, already. I know he isn't me, doesn't feel like I do."

[original-fine.livejournal.com]

"It's going full circle because there isn't one answer," Jim said. "For whatever reason, you or Bones or both aren't ready to find it yet. At some point, one or the other of you needs to be okay--really, truly okay--with what the other one needs."

At some point, Kirk may need to ask himself if enjoying sex with other people was truly worth losing Bones. Jim didn't think he was there, yet.

"To determine whether the differences between you are like chocolate--nice, but ultimately worth giving up--or air."

[kirktastic.livejournal.com]

"Chocolate," Kirk said immediately, "It isn't air. I never said it was. I offered to give it up!" He tried to explain. "I mean, I might not be 100% happy all the time about it, but I offered. You could give up chocolate and not be happy you had to it, but you would for them. I offered the same thing. He wasn't happy with that!" He threw up his hands.

[original-fine.livejournal.com]

Jim shook his head. "I know," he said. "I know we've been over it. I know it doesn't make much sense to you, but if I can sense you're unhappy about it, you can be sure Bones can. And that, I think, is the thing. If he thinks you're forcing yourself to do something onerous, just for him, he may fear your eventual resentment. I can't ask Spock not to be logical. He might try to comply, to make me happy, but I'll always know it goes against his nature. I'm just not sure we're the same in this way, Jim. I'm just not sure casual sex is as important to me."

Jim felt like he'd said the same thing over and over, but there wasn't much else he could do. They'd have to work this out for themselves.